Although the US constitution guarantees the right to a free press, that right does not extend to indigenous nations, who have the sovereignty to make their own laws and constitutions. The documentary Bad Press explores what happens when the Muscogee Creek Nation faces a threat to its free press. Hosts Leah Dajches and Matt Jordan talk with director Rebecca Landsberry-Baker and Angel Ellis, one of the journalists featured in the film.
Special thanks to our guests:
Rebecca Landsberry-Baker is an enrolled citizen of the Muscogee (Creek) Nation and the executive director of the Indigenous Journalists Association. She is a recipient of the 2018 NCAIED “Native American 40 Under 40” award and was selected to the Harvard Shorenstein News Leaders Fall 2022 cohort. Landsberry-Baker made her directorial debut with the documentary feature film, BAD PRESS, which was supported by the Sundance Institute, Ford Foundation JustFilms, NBC, and the Gotham. BAD PRESS premiered at the 2023 Sundance Film Festival and received the U.S. Documentary Special Jury Award for Freedom of Expression.
Angel Ellis is a Citizen of the Muscogee (Creek) Nation and has lived, worked, and played within the tribes' reservation boundaries most of her life. Growing up, her heroes had press passes rather than capes and inspired her to become a journalist. Ellis became Director of Mvskoke Media in 2020. In 2020 she joined the ranks of Elias Boudinot Free Press award winners, an award given by the Indigenous Journalist Association to those who defend press freedoms. In November 2022, the Local Media Association (LMA) recognized Ellis during Native American Heritage Month as one of the Indigenous people "who have positively influenced and enriched the United States." In January 2023, the film "Bad Press" premiered at Sundance. This film follow’s Ellis’s advocacy work and was selected as the Sundance Special Jury Freedom of Expression Award. She remains dedicated to serving her community as Mvskoke Media’s Director and has consulted some of the most high profile media companies in the world on best practices for Indigenous storytelling.
Leah Dajches: Although the US Constitution guarantees the right to a free press, Indigenous nations craft their own constitutions, and less than 1% of Native American tribes have a provision guaranteeing a free press. To say this puts reporters in a tough spot is an understatement. These journalists face intense pressure to keep coverage of tribal governments in a positive light. In November of 2018, the employees of Mvskoke Media, the tribal-affiliated news outlet for the Muscogee Creek Nation in Oklahoma, arrived at work to news that free press on their reservation was at risk. You see, Mvskoke Media had just investigated the speaker of the national council for sexual misconduct. And that speaker had introduced an emergency measure to the tribe's autonomous governing body to repeal its landmark free press bill. The staff of Mvskoke Media immediately started documenting their concerns, as captured in the breakout Sundance documentary, Bad Press.
Matt Jordan: We're going to talk with Rebecca Landsberry-Baker, one of the directors of the film, and Angel Ellis, one of the featured reporters. Both are citizens of the Muscogee Nation. Rebecca is the executive director of the Indigenous Journalists Association. Bad Press is her directorial debut. It premiered at the 2023 Sundance film festival and received the US Documentary Special Jury Award for freedom of expression. Angel has lived, worked, and played within the tribe's reservation boundaries for most of her life. An award-winning journalist, she remains dedicated to serving her community and has consulted some of the most high-profile media companies in the world on best practices for Indigenous storytelling.
Leah Dajches: Hi, Angel. Hi, Becca. Welcome to News Over Noise.
Angel Ellis: Thanks for having us. I'm so excited to chat.
Rebecca Landsberry-Baker: [MUSCOGEE] I'm so happy to be here.
Leah Dajches: We'll get into it. My first question is, I'd love if you could tell us a little bit about what kind of events led or really inspired the documentary, Bad Press.
Rebecca Landsberry-Baker: Sure, I can take that one first. So as a citizen of the Muscogee Creek Nation and a former editor of what was then the Muscogee Nation News, I like to stay up to date with what was happening there at Mvskoke Media and with my tribe, of course. And so, back in 2018, I was actually serving on the Mvskoke Media editorial board. And so, when I heard the news of this repeal of our lauded free press protection as one of only five tribes out of 574 here in the US that had free press protections. The Muscogee Creek Nation was one of them at the time. And so, I heard the news that the Muscogee Creek Nation National Council was planning on possibly repealing our free press law. And so, of course, I was on high alert at that time in my position as you know president of the editorial board, and so I wanted to keep up with what was happening. And so Mvskoke Media was covering the vote itself. So, I don't know how much we want to get into any spoilers, but I think it's probably important to know for this purpose that the free press law was repealed in a very close vote-- a tie vote-- back in November of 2018. And that effectively disbanded the editorial board at the time. And in my current role as the executive director of the Indigenous Journalists Association, we've seen this happen to other tribal media outlets that have had their stories squashed or transparency just trampled on by the tribal governments because the stories, the coverage, didn't suit them, or they didn't want specific pieces of information out. So, this all happened in the lead up to a really important election year for the Muscogee Creek Nation coming up in 2019. And so, I came to my husband, Garrett Baker, who's also a producer on Bad Press, and I was like, how can we make sure we're documenting this story? I want to make sure that the journalist side of this is going to be heard and it's not going to be swept under the rug, like I've seen it so many times happen at you know at IJA, and then that's just the end of it. So, it's kind of wild. And you think a little backwards to say, oh, we need to make sure we're telling the journalist's story. But in Indian country, that's absolutely-- that the power imbalance is there between the tribal governments and tribal journalists because there's all one tribal budget that is shared by everyone. And so, whoever controls the purse strings in Indian country controls the story. And so, I wanted to make sure that there was some way that we can make sure that we were documenting what was happening there in real time. And so, we came to who eventually became our co-director, Joe peeler, who is a documentary editor and a good friend of Garrett's, and said, do you think this is something that we could actually do as a documentary feature? We know you've gotten a lot of pitches for things that could be documentaries. And Joe was like, I think this story is obviously very important. We had the 2020 election coming up in the American elections. So, the political landscape was obviously, I think, ripe for this kind of story as a microcosm of things happening in our Indigenous communities. And so, then Joe met Angel on a Zoom and immediately said, yeah, I definitely want to get involved with this, and I want to follow Angel around because she is amazing and dynamic, and there's just no one that could you know lead this story the way that she could. And I second that all the way around. So, I'm very thankful that Joe wanted to sign on to the project. And I think as co-directors, that dynamic was really important because I had had, obviously, the background in tribal journalism and the connection to our you know our journalists and the Muscogee Creek Nation political machine. And then, also, Angel was a dear friend of mine, an auntie to my daughter. And so, I'm very, very thankful that she let us follow her around for four years. She might not have known I was going to be for four years-plus, but she hung in there. So that's where it all started, a long story to get to where we started filming in early 2019. But that's what brought us all together.
Matt Jordan: Angel, this question's for you. In the film, you describe the first 25 years of Muscogee Creek Nation News as being a happy happy, joy joy coverage. And I wonder, were people aware of this being a problem? One of the arguments the film makes is that when there's weak press freedom, it leads to these kind of abuses of power that Becca was just describing. Were people aware of the happy happy, joy model of news when it was in existence?
Angel Ellis: Oh, for sure. Our audience always knew that. And I hate to imply that they never tried to do the news, but this was systematic censorship. So, each editor who would come along in Muscogee Nation's newsroom had ran up against that stop, that censor point. It's like, yeah, we want to communicate with our constituents, to a degree. And they always found that place where their job would be in danger if they didn't stop. And in my mind-- and this is the reason I reached out to Becca and IJA-- no one else on Earth is as much of a free press advocate and expert in Indian country than the Indigenous Journalists Association. Every free press law that was successful came through that organization from the brainpower, the brain trust, that existed there. And I knew that if we were going to do anything at all, it was going to start with the power of that organization. There had to be pressure from the outside world watching. And it had to be able to communicate and break through those barriers so that people knew that not only was this happy, joy joy record not accurate. We had to make sure they knew they had a right to ask for more, right? When you're developing a democracy, it didn't happen one day. They didn't write these constitutional amendments and give us these rights for freedom of the press in one day. It was years of building. And then that's exactly how it was for Mvskoke Media. Generations have built this platform, and we really just stood on the shoulders of people who would run up against that machine in the past, and we charged a little bit more ahead. We just wanted to keep bringing that narrative forward until it was effective and at least served people.
Matt Jordan: Tell our audience a little bit because they might not know about tribal journalism. What is the history of the press in Muscogee Nation? I mean, I know Native American journalism and Indigenous journalism dates back to the 1820s with the Cherokee Phoenix, which was a bilingual newspaper. What's the history in the Creek Nation?
Angel Ellis: Well, I'm a little biased, full disclosure, as a citizen of a tribe. Storytelling is ancient for us. And we are the OG storytellers of the world. In fact, I think if you look at our existence today, we wouldn't be here without that concept of storytelling and using the voice because that's really all that carried us through a lot of systematic abuse. So, with journalism in particular, yeah, there's the Cherokee Phoenix, and it was worldwide. People across the ocean were reading the Cherokee Phoenix a long time ago. And then, even with my tribe specifically, in the film, we do that little history bumper with the very first Muscogee man who bought the Indian journal and ran that newspaper. And really, those archives of early Native territories are kind of the only unbiased archives there are because if you look at everything that was going on politically, most people were not incentivized to go in and really tell the story of Indian country. And so, the journalists who were working and recording and creating those archives, they really filled in a big chunk of history that the rest of the world might have missed had we not taken that route, had they not naturally assumed that storyteller role and conserved that knowledge for future generations. And with the Creek Nation specifically, the first free press law happened in 2015. Very new. And so, within three years, it was getting repealed. So, what does a young democracy do? It says, yeah, this law sounds great. They implement it, and then they're like, holy s**t, they can say anything they want? And we have to pay for that? And so, they pull it back. Also, politically, we had a lot of weird s**t going on then. There was a Supreme Court case in the United States Supreme Court, and tribal relationships with the federal government are not great. And they're worried that governing body might use information against the tribe. And so, they're incentivized to protect the citizens and to protect the tribe. But we're journalists, and we're incentivized to communicate and serve that role, and as that civically engaging element for people.
Leah Dajches: You both, at this point, mentioned the Indigenous Journalists Association, and I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about that association and its role in tribal journalism or news.
Rebecca Landsberry-Baker: Yeah, absolutely. We just recently celebrated our 40th anniversary last year and had our annual conference in Winnipeg. And we changed our name from the Native American Journalists Association to the Indigenous Journalists Association. So, I've been with the organization there-- it was the job that I actually took right after I worked as editor for what was then the Muscogee Nation News and worked with Angel and some of our other subjects in Bad Press, including Jerrad Moore and the late Gary Fife, Sterling Cosper. And so, IJA was the next career step for me and wanting to work for an organization that tells this story of free press in Indian country, like Angel mentioned. And she is our board treasurer currently, as well, so got to give a shout-out to her for being on the leadership of IJA, as well. But I thought one of the things that I was so frustrated with when I worked for the newspaper when I was at the Muscogee Creek Nation was that we didn't have free press while I was there. And so, issues that we tackle in the documentary were things that I faced personally, including you know those transparency issues and having stories squashed. And so, I knew personally about these challenges that Angel and the Mvskoke Media staff that stayed there were facing. And the IJA was the only organization that's really in the world that's having these conversations about what those press protections within our Indigenous communities can look like, and how they can also strengthen sovereignty. And that comes because it provides this accountability mechanism between the citizens themselves and their elected government officials. And so, I knew that I wanted to work for an organization you know that was going to work on an issue that was obviously very near and dear to my heart. And I've been with IJA now over 10 years. And so, again, I think the work that we do is so important. And there is this handful of tribes that have free press protections. And again, I mentioned earlier, out of the 574 federally recognized tribes here in the US, only five of them have those free press protections at the legislative level. And so even though it's a very small group, I think the work that they're doing for their communities is ever so important, and it has been the bedrock of what IJA was founded on as an organization. And then, around that also, building out, reporting resources for newsrooms who are covering Indigenous communities. And so, whether that's the tribal media newsrooms themselves that need resources or it's non-Native or non-Indigenous newsrooms who want to improve their coverage make sure that they are covering Indian country accurately. IJA provides those resources in the form of newsroom trainings, reporting guides, our programs, like our Indigenous Journalism Fellowship and our annual Indigenous Media Conference. So, in that way, like I said, the conference is really great because it's kind of a big family reunion. And you get those tribes together that have those free press protections, and we're able to talk through the challenges but also the joys of what that free press protection means and how it plays out in your community. And so, I think those conversations that we have at the Indigenous Media Conference are very, very special and you know provide that forum that our journalists and our members need because we're not having those conversations anywhere else. So, it's really, I think, an uplifting experience for our attendees and our participants to be able to facilitate those conversations and just be in community with each other because we have such unique challenges. And it's in a very nuanced setting, so having some to really talk through those challenges that are specific to covering our own Indigenous communities is a sacred space. So, I'll let Angel chime in on that, too.
Angel Ellis: Yeah, my very first conference that I attended was in 2019. We were filming it. And I sat at a table, and I watched Tim Giago talk about the things he went through as an Indigenous journalist, a man from the print sector, specifically. He had bombs thrown into his office. And he talked about that really candidly in that space. It's a very open and I sat at a table with folks from the Navajo Times, who are the absolute gold standard of press freedom in Indian country. They have no tie to the government in the sense that, like, right now we do. But the Navajo Times is utterly independent completely and financially, as well. And I sat at a table with the board members of the Grand Rondes News. And these were the only people in Indian country doing this work. I sat on a panel with Benny Polacca from the Osage News, another press freedom organization. And I got to speak with Brian Pollard and learn from him, who was at the Cherokee Nation when they were fighting the same fight. And so, I sat there at that conference for the very first time. And as we were at conference, we engineered that entire scene where I stood up in a meeting and I demanded it be an on-record, non-executive session meeting. And I just whistle blew on it all that they were censoring us. And going to that conference lit my hair on fire. I was like, no one's throwing a bomb in my office. This is just administrative bulls**t we're dealing with here. It's time to put our big girl pants on and really do what's necessary. I had no idea it would take so long, but it was really that experience and the women that I met at IJA conference who breathed life into me when I was really down and downtrodden. And it's the only reason it worked. Having all those minds come together and really advocate and support each other really changed the scope of history for our tribe and a really big way. To have this information and to have these protections broke through a ceiling. The great thing about Indian country, too, is when something works for someone, we tend to emulate the best. And so now we get to be this gold standard of policy for press freedom. And it's even applicable in places like Poland. And we've gone there and shown this film, and people there have said to Joe, like, you had no idea you were-- you were making a film about some Natives in Okmulgee, but you were making a film about Poland, as well. And that's the new conversation that's happening, is this is not something that's regulated just to Indian country. Where the canary in the mine, and we're showing the world that it's getting really bad and things are going south. And if you want to survive this phase, you will protect your storytelling at all costs. It's paramount to our landscape now.
Matt Jordan: Well, one of the things, I think, not only just telling the story of protecting free press but also some of the ways, Angel, that you were doing, and things that you were doing in the press in particular. One thing we talk a lot about is something as an antidote to the standard way of covering things in the mainstream news, right? And one of the things that you are doing in the film is what people often call the citizens agenda model, which is that you go out there and ask people in the community what you should be covering. And so, I think that was a that was a real lesson for people who would watch this, as well. And I was wondering, since the film is kind of implying that when you have erosion of freedom of press, you also have erosion of trust in government, I'm wondering if better coverage has led to more trust in government since the freedom of the press stuff got passed.
Angel Ellis: Yeah, I would love to just tell the story of our very last election that happened in the fall last year. Nobody protested. Nobody called it into court to say it was unfair. Nobody did a recount. The very first election was a good one, and everybody accepted the results. And I think the work we did putting cameras on that really solidified faith in that system. And it was important to do because people do need to trust that their government is doing what it's supposed to be doing. It puts the power back in their hands as citizens living under that governance. And you're absolutely right that any time you have problems where the press is weak and under attack, it's often because trust is an issue. And I wish I could say we captured new lightning in a bottle, but it's not. We did the very core principle that we you've always known as relative to journalism, and that's we served the public. We serve the audience what they wanted. And they were very candid and able to articulate what they wanted and needed, even if they didn't use the same jargon that we use. And because we use the citizens' input, it was so powerfully influential with those politicians. They couldn't dare say, God no, we won't let the citizens vote on this. They don't know what's good for them, or they wouldn't be in office anymore.
And fun fact-- many of them are not who repealed free press. I think there might be only one person who was with that vote that's still in office. And those days are even kind of numbered. People remember this, and they know when you try to take their rights away. And we just started communicating really closely with our audience. It's that basic-- how to establish trust in the news is to talk to your people, and then we ran with that. And we reminded everybody of it at every single point we could because that's what they were asking us to do.
Leah Dajches: Speaking of hearing from citizens, on the website for Bad Press, I noticed something. It was called the Freedom of Press in Indian Country Survey. And as a social scientist, I was naturally very intrigued. I was curious to see the survey on the website, but it didn't seem like a typical quantitative survey that I'm used to. Rather, it looked like it was maybe a way for you all to gauge an understanding of access to news sources and related structures. And so, I'm curious, as a self-proclaimed data nerd, what are the hopes or goals with that survey?
Rebecca Landsberry-Baker: Yeah, I think that survey actually came about, the first draft, from Angel herself. So, we're very appreciative. She's played, obviously, a very central role to our impact campaign for Bad Press. So as part of that campaign, we have this natural, built-in goal of adding press protections in Indian country, whether that's at the legislative level or that's at the constitutional level. And so the goal for the survey was just to gather feedback from tribal citizens across the globe, really, to capture what their experiences are with their own tribal media outlets, with their you know tribal government, and see how those two are intersecting and if there have been efforts within their tribal communities to gain independence or any sort, or also if there's not been any, at least, steps toward that, if there's an interest there. And so, I think one of the goals, and where IJA really comes in as a partner, is to follow up on you know any of those inquiries or data that we collect. And if there is an interest for an outlet, or it may be just a citizen that says, I want to look at the options around free press for my tribal media outlet and want to know what that could do for me as a citizen, then we can follow up on those sorts of requests by looking at that data. But that's really, again, the goal of our impact campaign, is to show tribes impacts that having an independent media outlet can have on your tribe for the better. And so, I think there's a lot of education still needs to happen around that. And I think Muscogee Creek Nation-- I'm so grateful that now we have this roadmap to constitutional reform because that's what it took. But that was all led by the citizens themselves and telling us you know what they needed. So, each sovereign nation is going to blaze their own path to press freedom and do what's right for them. And so, we know that every model is not going to look the same. But as Angel said earlier, we really look to each other in Indian country for those successful models to build on. And so now we have that template to press freedom and how it can empower our citizens and strengthen our tribal sovereignty within one tribal government. And we'd really love to share the story of Bad Press and how that can be a powerful tool for not just the journalists, not the citizens, but also the overall governance structure and, again, the strengthening of the tribal sovereignty when you have all of those different groups empowered and feeling like their voices are heard and they are represented in the media coverage of their nation.
Angel Ellis: And it's kind of crazy to think that 574 federally recognized tribes-- that's just the federally recognized ones-- are state-recognized tribes, too. And then there are tribes of people who aren't recognized by any entity. But if you want to dig into some data, how do you apply one method across 574 variances? Our survey is really about identifying key stakeholders, too, who might be the people on the ground ready to move this in that area. So, it's asking questions about the types of government, and who's responsible for what, and are there any stakeholders who are ready to have this conversation. Do we need to direct resources, or is it going to take some priming before that conversation can happen? Because the one thing that you never want to happen is you don't want to have that patriarchal federal government handing down an establishing policy. That's not authentic, and it's not the Indigenous way.
And when you consider that some tribes, like the three affiliated tribes-- for example, Jodi Spotted Bear is doing a lot of amazing work for press freedom in that area. They literally can't change their constitution without federal intervention there. There's 100-and-something, I can't remember the exact number, that have BIA-approved constitutions. And so, we have to ask these questions. How does the federal government set up 154 governments without press freedom? What was their objective there? It was never success. It was never for those people. And so, to be able to function independently-- and so we have to go back and heal these s****y policies by doing it through people who are on the ground and who are vested in that interest.
Leah Dajches: Just a reminder, this is News Over Noise. I'm Leah Dajches.
Matt Jordan: And I'm Matt Jordan.
Leah Dajches: We're talking with journalists Rebecca Landsberry-Baker and Angel Ellis about the documentary, Bad Press, and the fight for freedom of the press in the Muscogee Nation.
Matt Jordan: The film shows people-- citizens, community members-- using all kinds of different media. And clearly, the Mvskoke Media has moved away from just print and has a bunch of different stuff. So, two related questions. First, is there a feeling within the community that it's imperative-- because other people are using all kinds of different media that are probably not Muscogee Creek media, is there a feeling within the community that it's really imperative that there is a Muscogee Creek voice that to combat that, to keep that stuff at bay?
Angel Ellis: Absolutely. Right now, our State is going through one of the most horrific resurgences of anti-Indigenous information I've ever seen. Our governor is almost laterally violent to Natives and tries to destroy pro-Native policy almost on a monthly level. And when we were pursuing the McGirt ruling through the Supreme Courts, for instance, every news organization in Oklahoma was going, holy s**t, these Natives are going to own everything. We're f****d and we don't know what to do with ourselves.
And so, we had to be that voice that was like, OK, people. Jurisdiction for criminal matters does not mean white people get kicked out of their homes. We had to educate the world. And I've spent countless hours, many that I bill for quite a good amount of money, educating these news entities how to do this better and how to tell these stories with more of educated context than just that scary bulls** eyeball-grabbing headline. Because we know that a major network has almost zero interest in Native politics unless a chief is getting arrested for fraud of some kind. That's a big, sexy news story. But do they know that we contribute to a s**tload of these roads and schools that are being built? Do they know that $155 million from my tribe is actually sent to the state coffers? They don't know that kind of thing. And so, we're almost in this position of correcting the canon that exists in the world. All these archives that are full of stories are not necessarily full of accurate stories about Indigenous people.
One example I'll use-- and I hate to say names. But I was approached for an interview, and the person said, I scoured our archives, and we have never, not once, had a story focused strictly on Indigenous media. And I was like, well, the time is now. And I think of the archives in those terms. Like, what are some people 70, 80, 100 years down the road going to see about this snapshot in time? And if we think about it from an archival standpoint, then we're healing those archives that have been the subject of erasure. And that's where erasure starts for Indigenous people; when we're not properly represented in the media. A good colleague of mine Duncan McCue, who wrote a wonderful book called Decolonizing Journalism-- sorry-- he just said, when was the point that you realized that the media hurt Indigenous people? All of us have come to that point at some time. And that's why it's so important to protect these archives. At one point during our hostile takeover, the leader of this organization was ready to throw out our archives. And I was literally pulling them out of trash cans and putting them into my car because there was no way in hell I was going to let our physical archive just, poof, go to a recycling bin. It just wasn't going to happen. And then, there are some issues in our archive that have been disappeared. My very first embezzlement story doesn't exist in our archive.
Matt Jordan: That's the one from 2011?
Angel Ellis: Yeah. We have no record of it because it pissed people off, and they made sure that was-- if it matters enough that they would hide it from the archives, that should tell us how important these archives are and what we need to do to make sure they exist.
Matt Jordan: I was also wondering, in relation to-- so 2018 is when a lot of the bad stuff went down. And it was also a time when anti-press rhetoric nationwide was on the rise, right? I mean, Trump famously made the press the enemy of the people. Did some of that seep into the into the tribal leaders, as well? Because Oklahoma is not exactly a-- it's kind of a red state out there.
Leah Dajches: Surprise.
Rebecca Landsberry-Baker: Kind of.
Angel Ellis: We're bright red, if not maybe slightly purple. I mean, but this is the cool thing about looking at this film from that standpoint, is Natives are conservative. Natives are liberal. Natives are progressive. The variety of thought is huge. And yeah, all of those top-down thought trickle into even our communities that hold themselves aloft from the mainstream. But still, the themes penetrate. And so, one of the things that I think is absolutely delightful and is the only reason we could do it in four years and not 20-- we don't have a partisan registry. When you register to vote in the Muscogee Creek Nation, you don't tick a box for left or right. You're just a Muscogee citizen. And so, we removed that. Having that label removed makes it an easier conversation to have. And if you watch the film, those words don't come up. We don't talk about it from a Republican or a Democrat standpoint. This is my rights, my human being rights. They transcend all of that.
Leah Dajches: And I'm curious. Something that we talk a lot about with the News Literacy Initiative is news avoidance. It's such a prominent topic, this idea that people are turning away from news, particularly political news, because it's overwhelming, it's depressing, it's hard to understand. So, they're instead turning towards celebrity news, like Taylor Swift's latest album. And so, I'm wondering, within Creek Nation and thinking about tribal news, do you sense that citizens are also feeling a sense of news avoidance? And does that come into play in thinking about a desire for free press among citizens?
Angel Ellis: I think what you have to understand about the citizens of a tribal nation is that, from the dawn of record, we have been living with news avoidance. Those records never reflected us at all. And so, we've always looked at that record as going, well, they almost got it, but. And so yeah, I think that it's easier as a tribal citizen to turn off some of those national narratives and to really focus in on home and really see what the impact of a conversation is. Because we're still a people who meet together and talk together without having those really ugly, weaponized words. And that's what's happening on that national level. People are stealing words from each other. They're making certain words a weapon to use against someone. And so, being people of a tribe, we know what that's like. We're still arguing over whether you should call me an Indian or an Indigenous person, and so we know how to break down a conversation into human-to-human speaking to each other. And then, you have to understand, too, in the Indigenous community, in the Indian world, the self matters less than the community. That's still a thing here. And so, I think you can see greater progress. And actually, if I compare my participating in American politics versus tribal politics, it's much more holistic to participate here. Sometimes it's even funny because some of these people are your cousins, you know? And you know them.
Matt Jordan: So, I mean, that was one of the things that struck me from the film-- and maybe, Becca, you could answer this one-- is that the relationship of people to the tribe is much more-- is stronger and more involved than what we see in American government in general. Is that something that you see in a lot of the tribal journalism that-- the rebrand is in the Indigenous Journalism Association. The groups that you work with, is this a thing that you see? Because what Angel was just describing where people think about the community first, I mean, this is what journalist reform people dream of, right? Is that you can write a story that's not from a both sides perspective but is from a public interest perspective.
So, is this something that's stronger in Native American and Indigenous journalism than it is in the rest of America?
Rebecca Landsberry-Baker: Yeah, I would say absolutely that is true. And taking it back-- this was 10 years ago, but at the time, NAJA did a survey and asked not only our members but just tribal citizens broadly about their most trusted news sources. And overwhelmingly, tribal media was the most trusted source of news for them, and specifically around health. And so, I think that was a really important point when we were filming, we also had the pandemic happening. So that was another big issue that we were contending with, and the tribal government was trying to make sure citizens' needs were met with that. And what's the best way to get that information out is to utilize your tribal media sources to get that information. So, I think it was really-- COVID was a perfect example of how tribal communities, because we're so close knit, we can respond really quickly to the needs of our citizens. And I think Mvskoke Media was a great example of listening to what the citizens' needs were and directly saying, OK, this is where we need to focus our coverage on. What kind of programs can citizens take advantage of? What kind of resources are out there for vaccines? And you see it across Indian country during the pandemic that tribal communities, although they were hit very hard, they were also some of the first and had the largest numbers of vaccinated populations. And again, I think that that is due in part because the tribal governments were able to get the information from the citizens and share information through our outlets that are these trusted sources. It shows the importance of tribal media, and not only writing the first draft of history and what's happening with these important contextual situations, like COVID, like the McGirt Supreme Court case that we keep mentioning that confirmed the boundaries of the Muscogee Creek Nation and our reservation status. It was a very, very important win in 2020 when the Supreme Court made that decision, as well. And I know people were obviously looking to Mvskoke Media to provide that coverage. But also, another way that we see things play out in Bad Press is that there was such scrutiny on the Muscogee Creek Nation. And so, I think we can point back to that as one of the reasons, maybe, the tribal administration in place at the time-- they knew that, again, as Angel mentioned, the federal government was looking at them. You had the state government looking at them. So, we're fighting all of these external battles. They're like, we don't need an internal struggle, as well. And so, they were trying to tamp down that coverage. And the journalists are saying, no, this is not the right way to go about that. We need transparency. We need our citizens to know where there are issues or places that we can improve and where our government may not be as strong as it needs to be. And that's, again, their job as the fourth estate to point those out, and especially in these times of great need for our citizens, like in a pandemic or, again, when the Supreme Court is making a really important decision. So, I always like to point to the fact that both the journalists and the elected officials are both after the same thing in our story, and that's to protect our tribal sovereignty. They're just going at it in two very different approaches. The journalists for transparency, the tribal officials not necessarily going that route. But I think, again, it just underscores the importance of tribal media and the role that they play in educating and informing our citizens at these really critical times, especially in our own elections process, as well, for democracy.
Leah Dajches: And thinking more about your stories in the documentary, I just want to say, we watched Bad Press at my house, and we absolutely loved it. We really enjoyed watching it. And so, I'm curious. It was screened at Sundance Film Festival. What has the reception to the documentary been like?
Rebecca Landsberry-Baker: Yeah, I think I'm always happy to hear Angel's-- her take on things, too. I mean, she mentioned that we screened in Poland, and it's had such a great festival run there. Kind of wrapped up earlier this year. But just being able to premiere at a festival like Sundance and have so many people watch it in the film community, the journalism community-- obviously, journalists love the story and can relate to those newsroom humorous moments. But I think also, it's an opportunity to showcase modern Indigenous life that I just feel like is totally underrepresented on the big screen, and to show our humor. And one of the things I love about the film and I'm so glad to get the feedback from the communities is that we got that humor right. And so, I think it's such an important part of the Indigenous experience and really a mechanism of survival you know at times. It's like, all these crazy things are happening and you feel completely overwhelmed, so you have to have some sort of outlet. And I think the Native way is to use humor to defuse those situations. And so, I've been very excited and happy to hear the feedback from the community that we were able to capture that. And that was, again, totally my experience. Very authentic to my being in the newsroom with my fellow journalists and all just being in the trenches together.
Angel Ellis: When you talk about people's relationship to their tribal government versus the United States government, 2,510 people and a handful of scrappy journalists changed the constitution of the Muscogee Creek Nation. That'll never happen in the United States. Not ever. And so that's where I like to lead that one into. And as to the reception of the film, it's so fun to run into people around home who have got to see it because some people just take away such different things. Somebody who doesn't really ingrain themselves in journalism is like, hey, I didn't know Chief was, a wrestling fan. And it's like, [LAUGHS] all the different ways that they connect. And it's just like, I never in a million years dreamed I'd be a part of something that wove an important story into many facets like it did, but it worked out great, and I'm so proud of it. Yeah, and just-- man, visiting Poland was a game-changer for your mind because I often exist in this small tribal microcosm and don't really look out into the world and see what else is going on. And then, I have done that with going to this film. And later on this month, I'm going to be speaking at a college that I'd never would have hoped to have been admitted into. And so that is tremendous, and we're doing wonderful things. And I'm just very blessed.
Matt Jordan: Well, I was going to say, I mean, having you as a hero of the film kind of be a fight against the powers that be for trying to keep a free press is hopefully something that inspires people-- generally, journalists in general. But I wanted to just ask as a follow-up to the film, has this passage inspired anything else among other Indigenous groups to pass something similar? Because that's one of the hopes that the film raises, that it would be a cascading thing in Indigenous communities.
Angel Ellis: Yeah, I know that there are tribes right now working on it, but don't know how close they are to actually having the policy solidified. And then the requests. Since this film's come out, we've started an entire press freedom committee at IJA. And one of the first things that we had to respond to was an international presser about arresting a journalist in Canada. So, the reach is tremendous, and it's a little bit overwhelming at times because I'm like, oh, my god, I'm one person. Becca is just one person. Our organization is not huge, but it does have that tremendous clout. Networking and teaming up with Reporters Committee for Free Press and Press Freedom Foundation, it was just mind-blowing to me how those organizations have embraced this film, as well, and are-- you can almost turn off the Native part of it and just say journalism in general, and it's applicable across all these different intersecting points.
And so that's been just wonderful. I couldn't have really imagined it. I thought it was going to sit on a hard drive somewhere, I'll be honest.
Leah Dajches: Well, for our listeners out there, we'll wrap up by thinking how can they get access to the documentary?
Angel Ellis: If you check out bad-press-dot-film, I think that they are putting their screenings up there. And then, Becca is probably a better expert on that one than me.
Rebecca Landsberry-Baker: Yeah, thanks, Angel. So, we actually-- we do have distribution in the UK. Not in the US yet, so we're still working on that. But like I said, we're finishing up our festival run, and now focused on hosting some free community screenings. So, I'm really hoping we will be bringing the film back to the Indigenous Media Conference in Oklahoma City so people can watch it there. If you're planning on attending that, that'll be July 25 through the 27th in Oklahoma City. Looking to be at the First Americans Museum and screening in their beautiful theater. So yeah, we're hoping-- we'll post some more of our educational screenings at some universities and colleges coming up this year. And then, also, again, hoping to get back home to the Muscogee Creek Nation and do some of those community screenings for free so that as many tribal citizens as possible can watch it. And yeah, we'll be waiting to hear if there's any other distribution ops in the meantime, but that's our plan for now.
So yeah, you can check out that bad-press-dot-film for a full schedule there for any other upcoming screening opportunities. So, we'd love for people to see it far and wide.
Matt Jordan: Well, Becca and Angel, we both agree here that it's worth seeing even if you're not a tribal because in terms of America as a tribe, as disjointed as it is, we have a lot to learn from the way that you all fought for keeping your community informed. So, we thank you for the film, and thanks so much for talking to us today.
Angel Ellis: [MUSCOGEE] Thank you so much for having us and being part of our journey.
Rebecca Landsberry-Baker: Can't really believe that people this far and wide are loving it, but I'm happy that it's meaning something to everyone.
Matt Jordan: That was a really interesting conversation, Leah. It left me thinking, as did the movie, a lot about the media in general, and the news in particular. So, what are things that percolate up for you?
Leah Dajches: Yeah, absolutely. I feel like we learned so much by talking with Angel and Becca. And I think for me, both in our conversation as well as through watching Bad Press, their documentary, I feel like I learned so much in general about tribal media and tribal news. And then, really, it has me thinking a lot about the role of free press within the broader United States, and how perhaps there's a need to fight for it more than what we're doing naturally.
Matt Jordan: I found myself thinking that we often hear people in the news who produce news talking so much about professional ethics, about how to cover a story. And it's inspiring to hear journalists whose commitment is to the people that are serving and how differently they think about it. For them, the trust of the people and being truthful matters more than whatever professional ethics they might that that forms the basis of their of their relationship to what they're doing.
Leah Dajches: That's it for this episode of News Over Noise. Our guests were journalist Rebecca Landsberry-Baker and Angel Ellis. Rebecca directed the documentary, Bad Press, which chronicled the tribe's fight for freedom of the press in the Muscogee Nation. Angel was one of the journalists featured in the film. To learn more, visit newsovernoise.org. I'm Leah Dajches.
Matt Jordan: And I'm Matt Jordan.
Leah Dajches: Until next time, stay well and well-informed.
Matt Jordan: News Over Noise is produced by the Penn State Donald P. Bellisario College of Communications and WPSU. This program has been funded by the Office of the Executive Vice President and Provost at Penn State and is part of the Penn State News Literacy initiative.
[END OF TRANSCRIPT]
Leah Dajches: Although the US Constitution guarantees the right to a free press, Indigenous nations craft their own constitutions, and less than 1% of Native American tribes have a provision guaranteeing a free press. To say this puts reporters in a tough spot is an understatement. These journalists face intense pressure to keep coverage of tribal governments in a positive light. In November of 2018, the employees of Mvskoke Media, the tribal-affiliated news outlet for the Muscogee Creek Nation in Oklahoma, arrived at work to news that free press on their reservation was at risk. You see, Mvskoke Media had just investigated the speaker of the national council for sexual misconduct. And that speaker had introduced an emergency measure to the tribe's autonomous governing body to repeal its landmark free press bill. The staff of Mvskoke Media immediately started documenting their concerns, as captured in the breakout Sundance documentary, Bad Press.
Matt Jordan: We're going to talk with Rebecca Landsberry-Baker, one of the directors of the film, and Angel Ellis, one of the featured reporters. Both are citizens of the Muscogee Nation. Rebecca is the executive director of the Indigenous Journalists Association. Bad Press is her directorial debut. It premiered at the 2023 Sundance film festival and received the US Documentary Special Jury Award for freedom of expression. Angel has lived, worked, and played within the tribe's reservation boundaries for most of her life. An award-winning journalist, she remains dedicated to serving her community and has consulted some of the most high-profile media companies in the world on best practices for Indigenous storytelling.
Leah Dajches: Hi, Angel. Hi, Becca. Welcome to News Over Noise.
Angel Ellis: Thanks for having us. I'm so excited to chat.
Rebecca Landsberry-Baker: [MUSCOGEE] I'm so happy to be here.
Leah Dajches: We'll get into it. My first question is, I'd love if you could tell us a little bit about what kind of events led or really inspired the documentary, Bad Press.
Rebecca Landsberry-Baker: Sure, I can take that one first. So as a citizen of the Muscogee Creek Nation and a former editor of what was then the Muscogee Nation News, I like to stay up to date with what was happening there at Mvskoke Media and with my tribe, of course. And so, back in 2018, I was actually serving on the Mvskoke Media editorial board. And so, when I heard the news of this repeal of our lauded free press protection as one of only five tribes out of 574 here in the US that had free press protections. The Muscogee Creek Nation was one of them at the time. And so, I heard the news that the Muscogee Creek Nation National Council was planning on possibly repealing our free press law. And so, of course, I was on high alert at that time in my position as you know president of the editorial board, and so I wanted to keep up with what was happening. And so Mvskoke Media was covering the vote itself. So, I don't know how much we want to get into any spoilers, but I think it's probably important to know for this purpose that the free press law was repealed in a very close vote-- a tie vote-- back in November of 2018. And that effectively disbanded the editorial board at the time. And in my current role as the executive director of the Indigenous Journalists Association, we've seen this happen to other tribal media outlets that have had their stories squashed or transparency just trampled on by the tribal governments because the stories, the coverage, didn't suit them, or they didn't want specific pieces of information out. So, this all happened in the lead up to a really important election year for the Muscogee Creek Nation coming up in 2019. And so, I came to my husband, Garrett Baker, who's also a producer on Bad Press, and I was like, how can we make sure we're documenting this story? I want to make sure that the journalist side of this is going to be heard and it's not going to be swept under the rug, like I've seen it so many times happen at you know at IJA, and then that's just the end of it. So, it's kind of wild. And you think a little backwards to say, oh, we need to make sure we're telling the journalist's story. But in Indian country, that's absolutely-- that the power imbalance is there between the tribal governments and tribal journalists because there's all one tribal budget that is shared by everyone. And so, whoever controls the purse strings in Indian country controls the story. And so, I wanted to make sure that there was some way that we can make sure that we were documenting what was happening there in real time. And so, we came to who eventually became our co-director, Joe peeler, who is a documentary editor and a good friend of Garrett's, and said, do you think this is something that we could actually do as a documentary feature? We know you've gotten a lot of pitches for things that could be documentaries. And Joe was like, I think this story is obviously very important. We had the 2020 election coming up in the American elections. So, the political landscape was obviously, I think, ripe for this kind of story as a microcosm of things happening in our Indigenous communities. And so, then Joe met Angel on a Zoom and immediately said, yeah, I definitely want to get involved with this, and I want to follow Angel around because she is amazing and dynamic, and there's just no one that could you know lead this story the way that she could. And I second that all the way around. So, I'm very thankful that Joe wanted to sign on to the project. And I think as co-directors, that dynamic was really important because I had had, obviously, the background in tribal journalism and the connection to our you know our journalists and the Muscogee Creek Nation political machine. And then, also, Angel was a dear friend of mine, an auntie to my daughter. And so, I'm very, very thankful that she let us follow her around for four years. She might not have known I was going to be for four years-plus, but she hung in there. So that's where it all started, a long story to get to where we started filming in early 2019. But that's what brought us all together.
Matt Jordan: Angel, this question's for you. In the film, you describe the first 25 years of Muscogee Creek Nation News as being a happy happy, joy joy coverage. And I wonder, were people aware of this being a problem? One of the arguments the film makes is that when there's weak press freedom, it leads to these kind of abuses of power that Becca was just describing. Were people aware of the happy happy, joy model of news when it was in existence?
Angel Ellis: Oh, for sure. Our audience always knew that. And I hate to imply that they never tried to do the news, but this was systematic censorship. So, each editor who would come along in Muscogee Nation's newsroom had ran up against that stop, that censor point. It's like, yeah, we want to communicate with our constituents, to a degree. And they always found that place where their job would be in danger if they didn't stop. And in my mind-- and this is the reason I reached out to Becca and IJA-- no one else on Earth is as much of a free press advocate and expert in Indian country than the Indigenous Journalists Association. Every free press law that was successful came through that organization from the brainpower, the brain trust, that existed there. And I knew that if we were going to do anything at all, it was going to start with the power of that organization. There had to be pressure from the outside world watching. And it had to be able to communicate and break through those barriers so that people knew that not only was this happy, joy joy record not accurate. We had to make sure they knew they had a right to ask for more, right? When you're developing a democracy, it didn't happen one day. They didn't write these constitutional amendments and give us these rights for freedom of the press in one day. It was years of building. And then that's exactly how it was for Mvskoke Media. Generations have built this platform, and we really just stood on the shoulders of people who would run up against that machine in the past, and we charged a little bit more ahead. We just wanted to keep bringing that narrative forward until it was effective and at least served people.
Matt Jordan: Tell our audience a little bit because they might not know about tribal journalism. What is the history of the press in Muscogee Nation? I mean, I know Native American journalism and Indigenous journalism dates back to the 1820s with the Cherokee Phoenix, which was a bilingual newspaper. What's the history in the Creek Nation?
Angel Ellis: Well, I'm a little biased, full disclosure, as a citizen of a tribe. Storytelling is ancient for us. And we are the OG storytellers of the world. In fact, I think if you look at our existence today, we wouldn't be here without that concept of storytelling and using the voice because that's really all that carried us through a lot of systematic abuse. So, with journalism in particular, yeah, there's the Cherokee Phoenix, and it was worldwide. People across the ocean were reading the Cherokee Phoenix a long time ago. And then, even with my tribe specifically, in the film, we do that little history bumper with the very first Muscogee man who bought the Indian journal and ran that newspaper. And really, those archives of early Native territories are kind of the only unbiased archives there are because if you look at everything that was going on politically, most people were not incentivized to go in and really tell the story of Indian country. And so, the journalists who were working and recording and creating those archives, they really filled in a big chunk of history that the rest of the world might have missed had we not taken that route, had they not naturally assumed that storyteller role and conserved that knowledge for future generations. And with the Creek Nation specifically, the first free press law happened in 2015. Very new. And so, within three years, it was getting repealed. So, what does a young democracy do? It says, yeah, this law sounds great. They implement it, and then they're like, holy s**t, they can say anything they want? And we have to pay for that? And so, they pull it back. Also, politically, we had a lot of weird s**t going on then. There was a Supreme Court case in the United States Supreme Court, and tribal relationships with the federal government are not great. And they're worried that governing body might use information against the tribe. And so, they're incentivized to protect the citizens and to protect the tribe. But we're journalists, and we're incentivized to communicate and serve that role, and as that civically engaging element for people.
Leah Dajches: You both, at this point, mentioned the Indigenous Journalists Association, and I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about that association and its role in tribal journalism or news.
Rebecca Landsberry-Baker: Yeah, absolutely. We just recently celebrated our 40th anniversary last year and had our annual conference in Winnipeg. And we changed our name from the Native American Journalists Association to the Indigenous Journalists Association. So, I've been with the organization there-- it was the job that I actually took right after I worked as editor for what was then the Muscogee Nation News and worked with Angel and some of our other subjects in Bad Press, including Jerrad Moore and the late Gary Fife, Sterling Cosper. And so, IJA was the next career step for me and wanting to work for an organization that tells this story of free press in Indian country, like Angel mentioned. And she is our board treasurer currently, as well, so got to give a shout-out to her for being on the leadership of IJA, as well. But I thought one of the things that I was so frustrated with when I worked for the newspaper when I was at the Muscogee Creek Nation was that we didn't have free press while I was there. And so, issues that we tackle in the documentary were things that I faced personally, including you know those transparency issues and having stories squashed. And so, I knew personally about these challenges that Angel and the Mvskoke Media staff that stayed there were facing. And the IJA was the only organization that's really in the world that's having these conversations about what those press protections within our Indigenous communities can look like, and how they can also strengthen sovereignty. And that comes because it provides this accountability mechanism between the citizens themselves and their elected government officials. And so, I knew that I wanted to work for an organization you know that was going to work on an issue that was obviously very near and dear to my heart. And I've been with IJA now over 10 years. And so, again, I think the work that we do is so important. And there is this handful of tribes that have free press protections. And again, I mentioned earlier, out of the 574 federally recognized tribes here in the US, only five of them have those free press protections at the legislative level. And so even though it's a very small group, I think the work that they're doing for their communities is ever so important, and it has been the bedrock of what IJA was founded on as an organization. And then, around that also, building out, reporting resources for newsrooms who are covering Indigenous communities. And so, whether that's the tribal media newsrooms themselves that need resources or it's non-Native or non-Indigenous newsrooms who want to improve their coverage make sure that they are covering Indian country accurately. IJA provides those resources in the form of newsroom trainings, reporting guides, our programs, like our Indigenous Journalism Fellowship and our annual Indigenous Media Conference. So, in that way, like I said, the conference is really great because it's kind of a big family reunion. And you get those tribes together that have those free press protections, and we're able to talk through the challenges but also the joys of what that free press protection means and how it plays out in your community. And so, I think those conversations that we have at the Indigenous Media Conference are very, very special and you know provide that forum that our journalists and our members need because we're not having those conversations anywhere else. So, it's really, I think, an uplifting experience for our attendees and our participants to be able to facilitate those conversations and just be in community with each other because we have such unique challenges. And it's in a very nuanced setting, so having some to really talk through those challenges that are specific to covering our own Indigenous communities is a sacred space. So, I'll let Angel chime in on that, too.
Angel Ellis: Yeah, my very first conference that I attended was in 2019. We were filming it. And I sat at a table, and I watched Tim Giago talk about the things he went through as an Indigenous journalist, a man from the print sector, specifically. He had bombs thrown into his office. And he talked about that really candidly in that space. It's a very open and I sat at a table with folks from the Navajo Times, who are the absolute gold standard of press freedom in Indian country. They have no tie to the government in the sense that, like, right now we do. But the Navajo Times is utterly independent completely and financially, as well. And I sat at a table with the board members of the Grand Rondes News. And these were the only people in Indian country doing this work. I sat on a panel with Benny Polacca from the Osage News, another press freedom organization. And I got to speak with Brian Pollard and learn from him, who was at the Cherokee Nation when they were fighting the same fight. And so, I sat there at that conference for the very first time. And as we were at conference, we engineered that entire scene where I stood up in a meeting and I demanded it be an on-record, non-executive session meeting. And I just whistle blew on it all that they were censoring us. And going to that conference lit my hair on fire. I was like, no one's throwing a bomb in my office. This is just administrative bulls**t we're dealing with here. It's time to put our big girl pants on and really do what's necessary. I had no idea it would take so long, but it was really that experience and the women that I met at IJA conference who breathed life into me when I was really down and downtrodden. And it's the only reason it worked. Having all those minds come together and really advocate and support each other really changed the scope of history for our tribe and a really big way. To have this information and to have these protections broke through a ceiling. The great thing about Indian country, too, is when something works for someone, we tend to emulate the best. And so now we get to be this gold standard of policy for press freedom. And it's even applicable in places like Poland. And we've gone there and shown this film, and people there have said to Joe, like, you had no idea you were-- you were making a film about some Natives in Okmulgee, but you were making a film about Poland, as well. And that's the new conversation that's happening, is this is not something that's regulated just to Indian country. Where the canary in the mine, and we're showing the world that it's getting really bad and things are going south. And if you want to survive this phase, you will protect your storytelling at all costs. It's paramount to our landscape now.
Matt Jordan: Well, one of the things, I think, not only just telling the story of protecting free press but also some of the ways, Angel, that you were doing, and things that you were doing in the press in particular. One thing we talk a lot about is something as an antidote to the standard way of covering things in the mainstream news, right? And one of the things that you are doing in the film is what people often call the citizens agenda model, which is that you go out there and ask people in the community what you should be covering. And so, I think that was a that was a real lesson for people who would watch this, as well. And I was wondering, since the film is kind of implying that when you have erosion of freedom of press, you also have erosion of trust in government, I'm wondering if better coverage has led to more trust in government since the freedom of the press stuff got passed.
Angel Ellis: Yeah, I would love to just tell the story of our very last election that happened in the fall last year. Nobody protested. Nobody called it into court to say it was unfair. Nobody did a recount. The very first election was a good one, and everybody accepted the results. And I think the work we did putting cameras on that really solidified faith in that system. And it was important to do because people do need to trust that their government is doing what it's supposed to be doing. It puts the power back in their hands as citizens living under that governance. And you're absolutely right that any time you have problems where the press is weak and under attack, it's often because trust is an issue. And I wish I could say we captured new lightning in a bottle, but it's not. We did the very core principle that we you've always known as relative to journalism, and that's we served the public. We serve the audience what they wanted. And they were very candid and able to articulate what they wanted and needed, even if they didn't use the same jargon that we use. And because we use the citizens' input, it was so powerfully influential with those politicians. They couldn't dare say, God no, we won't let the citizens vote on this. They don't know what's good for them, or they wouldn't be in office anymore.
And fun fact-- many of them are not who repealed free press. I think there might be only one person who was with that vote that's still in office. And those days are even kind of numbered. People remember this, and they know when you try to take their rights away. And we just started communicating really closely with our audience. It's that basic-- how to establish trust in the news is to talk to your people, and then we ran with that. And we reminded everybody of it at every single point we could because that's what they were asking us to do.
Leah Dajches: Speaking of hearing from citizens, on the website for Bad Press, I noticed something. It was called the Freedom of Press in Indian Country Survey. And as a social scientist, I was naturally very intrigued. I was curious to see the survey on the website, but it didn't seem like a typical quantitative survey that I'm used to. Rather, it looked like it was maybe a way for you all to gauge an understanding of access to news sources and related structures. And so, I'm curious, as a self-proclaimed data nerd, what are the hopes or goals with that survey?
Rebecca Landsberry-Baker: Yeah, I think that survey actually came about, the first draft, from Angel herself. So, we're very appreciative. She's played, obviously, a very central role to our impact campaign for Bad Press. So as part of that campaign, we have this natural, built-in goal of adding press protections in Indian country, whether that's at the legislative level or that's at the constitutional level. And so the goal for the survey was just to gather feedback from tribal citizens across the globe, really, to capture what their experiences are with their own tribal media outlets, with their you know tribal government, and see how those two are intersecting and if there have been efforts within their tribal communities to gain independence or any sort, or also if there's not been any, at least, steps toward that, if there's an interest there. And so, I think one of the goals, and where IJA really comes in as a partner, is to follow up on you know any of those inquiries or data that we collect. And if there is an interest for an outlet, or it may be just a citizen that says, I want to look at the options around free press for my tribal media outlet and want to know what that could do for me as a citizen, then we can follow up on those sorts of requests by looking at that data. But that's really, again, the goal of our impact campaign, is to show tribes impacts that having an independent media outlet can have on your tribe for the better. And so, I think there's a lot of education still needs to happen around that. And I think Muscogee Creek Nation-- I'm so grateful that now we have this roadmap to constitutional reform because that's what it took. But that was all led by the citizens themselves and telling us you know what they needed. So, each sovereign nation is going to blaze their own path to press freedom and do what's right for them. And so, we know that every model is not going to look the same. But as Angel said earlier, we really look to each other in Indian country for those successful models to build on. And so now we have that template to press freedom and how it can empower our citizens and strengthen our tribal sovereignty within one tribal government. And we'd really love to share the story of Bad Press and how that can be a powerful tool for not just the journalists, not the citizens, but also the overall governance structure and, again, the strengthening of the tribal sovereignty when you have all of those different groups empowered and feeling like their voices are heard and they are represented in the media coverage of their nation.
Angel Ellis: And it's kind of crazy to think that 574 federally recognized tribes-- that's just the federally recognized ones-- are state-recognized tribes, too. And then there are tribes of people who aren't recognized by any entity. But if you want to dig into some data, how do you apply one method across 574 variances? Our survey is really about identifying key stakeholders, too, who might be the people on the ground ready to move this in that area. So, it's asking questions about the types of government, and who's responsible for what, and are there any stakeholders who are ready to have this conversation. Do we need to direct resources, or is it going to take some priming before that conversation can happen? Because the one thing that you never want to happen is you don't want to have that patriarchal federal government handing down an establishing policy. That's not authentic, and it's not the Indigenous way.
And when you consider that some tribes, like the three affiliated tribes-- for example, Jodi Spotted Bear is doing a lot of amazing work for press freedom in that area. They literally can't change their constitution without federal intervention there. There's 100-and-something, I can't remember the exact number, that have BIA-approved constitutions. And so, we have to ask these questions. How does the federal government set up 154 governments without press freedom? What was their objective there? It was never success. It was never for those people. And so, to be able to function independently-- and so we have to go back and heal these s****y policies by doing it through people who are on the ground and who are vested in that interest.
Leah Dajches: Just a reminder, this is News Over Noise. I'm Leah Dajches.
Matt Jordan: And I'm Matt Jordan.
Leah Dajches: We're talking with journalists Rebecca Landsberry-Baker and Angel Ellis about the documentary, Bad Press, and the fight for freedom of the press in the Muscogee Nation.
Matt Jordan: The film shows people-- citizens, community members-- using all kinds of different media. And clearly, the Mvskoke Media has moved away from just print and has a bunch of different stuff. So, two related questions. First, is there a feeling within the community that it's imperative-- because other people are using all kinds of different media that are probably not Muscogee Creek media, is there a feeling within the community that it's really imperative that there is a Muscogee Creek voice that to combat that, to keep that stuff at bay?
Angel Ellis: Absolutely. Right now, our State is going through one of the most horrific resurgences of anti-Indigenous information I've ever seen. Our governor is almost laterally violent to Natives and tries to destroy pro-Native policy almost on a monthly level. And when we were pursuing the McGirt ruling through the Supreme Courts, for instance, every news organization in Oklahoma was going, holy s**t, these Natives are going to own everything. We're f****d and we don't know what to do with ourselves.
And so, we had to be that voice that was like, OK, people. Jurisdiction for criminal matters does not mean white people get kicked out of their homes. We had to educate the world. And I've spent countless hours, many that I bill for quite a good amount of money, educating these news entities how to do this better and how to tell these stories with more of educated context than just that scary bulls** eyeball-grabbing headline. Because we know that a major network has almost zero interest in Native politics unless a chief is getting arrested for fraud of some kind. That's a big, sexy news story. But do they know that we contribute to a s**tload of these roads and schools that are being built? Do they know that $155 million from my tribe is actually sent to the state coffers? They don't know that kind of thing. And so, we're almost in this position of correcting the canon that exists in the world. All these archives that are full of stories are not necessarily full of accurate stories about Indigenous people.
One example I'll use-- and I hate to say names. But I was approached for an interview, and the person said, I scoured our archives, and we have never, not once, had a story focused strictly on Indigenous media. And I was like, well, the time is now. And I think of the archives in those terms. Like, what are some people 70, 80, 100 years down the road going to see about this snapshot in time? And if we think about it from an archival standpoint, then we're healing those archives that have been the subject of erasure. And that's where erasure starts for Indigenous people; when we're not properly represented in the media. A good colleague of mine Duncan McCue, who wrote a wonderful book called Decolonizing Journalism-- sorry-- he just said, when was the point that you realized that the media hurt Indigenous people? All of us have come to that point at some time. And that's why it's so important to protect these archives. At one point during our hostile takeover, the leader of this organization was ready to throw out our archives. And I was literally pulling them out of trash cans and putting them into my car because there was no way in hell I was going to let our physical archive just, poof, go to a recycling bin. It just wasn't going to happen. And then, there are some issues in our archive that have been disappeared. My very first embezzlement story doesn't exist in our archive.
Matt Jordan: That's the one from 2011?
Angel Ellis: Yeah. We have no record of it because it pissed people off, and they made sure that was-- if it matters enough that they would hide it from the archives, that should tell us how important these archives are and what we need to do to make sure they exist.
Matt Jordan: I was also wondering, in relation to-- so 2018 is when a lot of the bad stuff went down. And it was also a time when anti-press rhetoric nationwide was on the rise, right? I mean, Trump famously made the press the enemy of the people. Did some of that seep into the into the tribal leaders, as well? Because Oklahoma is not exactly a-- it's kind of a red state out there.
Leah Dajches: Surprise.
Rebecca Landsberry-Baker: Kind of.
Angel Ellis: We're bright red, if not maybe slightly purple. I mean, but this is the cool thing about looking at this film from that standpoint, is Natives are conservative. Natives are liberal. Natives are progressive. The variety of thought is huge. And yeah, all of those top-down thought trickle into even our communities that hold themselves aloft from the mainstream. But still, the themes penetrate. And so, one of the things that I think is absolutely delightful and is the only reason we could do it in four years and not 20-- we don't have a partisan registry. When you register to vote in the Muscogee Creek Nation, you don't tick a box for left or right. You're just a Muscogee citizen. And so, we removed that. Having that label removed makes it an easier conversation to have. And if you watch the film, those words don't come up. We don't talk about it from a Republican or a Democrat standpoint. This is my rights, my human being rights. They transcend all of that.
Leah Dajches: And I'm curious. Something that we talk a lot about with the News Literacy Initiative is news avoidance. It's such a prominent topic, this idea that people are turning away from news, particularly political news, because it's overwhelming, it's depressing, it's hard to understand. So, they're instead turning towards celebrity news, like Taylor Swift's latest album. And so, I'm wondering, within Creek Nation and thinking about tribal news, do you sense that citizens are also feeling a sense of news avoidance? And does that come into play in thinking about a desire for free press among citizens?
Angel Ellis: I think what you have to understand about the citizens of a tribal nation is that, from the dawn of record, we have been living with news avoidance. Those records never reflected us at all. And so, we've always looked at that record as going, well, they almost got it, but. And so yeah, I think that it's easier as a tribal citizen to turn off some of those national narratives and to really focus in on home and really see what the impact of a conversation is. Because we're still a people who meet together and talk together without having those really ugly, weaponized words. And that's what's happening on that national level. People are stealing words from each other. They're making certain words a weapon to use against someone. And so, being people of a tribe, we know what that's like. We're still arguing over whether you should call me an Indian or an Indigenous person, and so we know how to break down a conversation into human-to-human speaking to each other. And then, you have to understand, too, in the Indigenous community, in the Indian world, the self matters less than the community. That's still a thing here. And so, I think you can see greater progress. And actually, if I compare my participating in American politics versus tribal politics, it's much more holistic to participate here. Sometimes it's even funny because some of these people are your cousins, you know? And you know them.
Matt Jordan: So, I mean, that was one of the things that struck me from the film-- and maybe, Becca, you could answer this one-- is that the relationship of people to the tribe is much more-- is stronger and more involved than what we see in American government in general. Is that something that you see in a lot of the tribal journalism that-- the rebrand is in the Indigenous Journalism Association. The groups that you work with, is this a thing that you see? Because what Angel was just describing where people think about the community first, I mean, this is what journalist reform people dream of, right? Is that you can write a story that's not from a both sides perspective but is from a public interest perspective.
So, is this something that's stronger in Native American and Indigenous journalism than it is in the rest of America?
Rebecca Landsberry-Baker: Yeah, I would say absolutely that is true. And taking it back-- this was 10 years ago, but at the time, NAJA did a survey and asked not only our members but just tribal citizens broadly about their most trusted news sources. And overwhelmingly, tribal media was the most trusted source of news for them, and specifically around health. And so, I think that was a really important point when we were filming, we also had the pandemic happening. So that was another big issue that we were contending with, and the tribal government was trying to make sure citizens' needs were met with that. And what's the best way to get that information out is to utilize your tribal media sources to get that information. So, I think it was really-- COVID was a perfect example of how tribal communities, because we're so close knit, we can respond really quickly to the needs of our citizens. And I think Mvskoke Media was a great example of listening to what the citizens' needs were and directly saying, OK, this is where we need to focus our coverage on. What kind of programs can citizens take advantage of? What kind of resources are out there for vaccines? And you see it across Indian country during the pandemic that tribal communities, although they were hit very hard, they were also some of the first and had the largest numbers of vaccinated populations. And again, I think that that is due in part because the tribal governments were able to get the information from the citizens and share information through our outlets that are these trusted sources. It shows the importance of tribal media, and not only writing the first draft of history and what's happening with these important contextual situations, like COVID, like the McGirt Supreme Court case that we keep mentioning that confirmed the boundaries of the Muscogee Creek Nation and our reservation status. It was a very, very important win in 2020 when the Supreme Court made that decision, as well. And I know people were obviously looking to Mvskoke Media to provide that coverage. But also, another way that we see things play out in Bad Press is that there was such scrutiny on the Muscogee Creek Nation. And so, I think we can point back to that as one of the reasons, maybe, the tribal administration in place at the time-- they knew that, again, as Angel mentioned, the federal government was looking at them. You had the state government looking at them. So, we're fighting all of these external battles. They're like, we don't need an internal struggle, as well. And so, they were trying to tamp down that coverage. And the journalists are saying, no, this is not the right way to go about that. We need transparency. We need our citizens to know where there are issues or places that we can improve and where our government may not be as strong as it needs to be. And that's, again, their job as the fourth estate to point those out, and especially in these times of great need for our citizens, like in a pandemic or, again, when the Supreme Court is making a really important decision. So, I always like to point to the fact that both the journalists and the elected officials are both after the same thing in our story, and that's to protect our tribal sovereignty. They're just going at it in two very different approaches. The journalists for transparency, the tribal officials not necessarily going that route. But I think, again, it just underscores the importance of tribal media and the role that they play in educating and informing our citizens at these really critical times, especially in our own elections process, as well, for democracy.
Leah Dajches: And thinking more about your stories in the documentary, I just want to say, we watched Bad Press at my house, and we absolutely loved it. We really enjoyed watching it. And so, I'm curious. It was screened at Sundance Film Festival. What has the reception to the documentary been like?
Rebecca Landsberry-Baker: Yeah, I think I'm always happy to hear Angel's-- her take on things, too. I mean, she mentioned that we screened in Poland, and it's had such a great festival run there. Kind of wrapped up earlier this year. But just being able to premiere at a festival like Sundance and have so many people watch it in the film community, the journalism community-- obviously, journalists love the story and can relate to those newsroom humorous moments. But I think also, it's an opportunity to showcase modern Indigenous life that I just feel like is totally underrepresented on the big screen, and to show our humor. And one of the things I love about the film and I'm so glad to get the feedback from the communities is that we got that humor right. And so, I think it's such an important part of the Indigenous experience and really a mechanism of survival you know at times. It's like, all these crazy things are happening and you feel completely overwhelmed, so you have to have some sort of outlet. And I think the Native way is to use humor to defuse those situations. And so, I've been very excited and happy to hear the feedback from the community that we were able to capture that. And that was, again, totally my experience. Very authentic to my being in the newsroom with my fellow journalists and all just being in the trenches together.
Angel Ellis: When you talk about people's relationship to their tribal government versus the United States government, 2,510 people and a handful of scrappy journalists changed the constitution of the Muscogee Creek Nation. That'll never happen in the United States. Not ever. And so that's where I like to lead that one into. And as to the reception of the film, it's so fun to run into people around home who have got to see it because some people just take away such different things. Somebody who doesn't really ingrain themselves in journalism is like, hey, I didn't know Chief was, a wrestling fan. And it's like, [LAUGHS] all the different ways that they connect. And it's just like, I never in a million years dreamed I'd be a part of something that wove an important story into many facets like it did, but it worked out great, and I'm so proud of it. Yeah, and just-- man, visiting Poland was a game-changer for your mind because I often exist in this small tribal microcosm and don't really look out into the world and see what else is going on. And then, I have done that with going to this film. And later on this month, I'm going to be speaking at a college that I'd never would have hoped to have been admitted into. And so that is tremendous, and we're doing wonderful things. And I'm just very blessed.
Matt Jordan: Well, I was going to say, I mean, having you as a hero of the film kind of be a fight against the powers that be for trying to keep a free press is hopefully something that inspires people-- generally, journalists in general. But I wanted to just ask as a follow-up to the film, has this passage inspired anything else among other Indigenous groups to pass something similar? Because that's one of the hopes that the film raises, that it would be a cascading thing in Indigenous communities.
Angel Ellis: Yeah, I know that there are tribes right now working on it, but don't know how close they are to actually having the policy solidified. And then the requests. Since this film's come out, we've started an entire press freedom committee at IJA. And one of the first things that we had to respond to was an international presser about arresting a journalist in Canada. So, the reach is tremendous, and it's a little bit overwhelming at times because I'm like, oh, my god, I'm one person. Becca is just one person. Our organization is not huge, but it does have that tremendous clout. Networking and teaming up with Reporters Committee for Free Press and Press Freedom Foundation, it was just mind-blowing to me how those organizations have embraced this film, as well, and are-- you can almost turn off the Native part of it and just say journalism in general, and it's applicable across all these different intersecting points.
And so that's been just wonderful. I couldn't have really imagined it. I thought it was going to sit on a hard drive somewhere, I'll be honest.
Leah Dajches: Well, for our listeners out there, we'll wrap up by thinking how can they get access to the documentary?
Angel Ellis: If you check out bad-press-dot-film, I think that they are putting their screenings up there. And then, Becca is probably a better expert on that one than me.
Rebecca Landsberry-Baker: Yeah, thanks, Angel. So, we actually-- we do have distribution in the UK. Not in the US yet, so we're still working on that. But like I said, we're finishing up our festival run, and now focused on hosting some free community screenings. So, I'm really hoping we will be bringing the film back to the Indigenous Media Conference in Oklahoma City so people can watch it there. If you're planning on attending that, that'll be July 25 through the 27th in Oklahoma City. Looking to be at the First Americans Museum and screening in their beautiful theater. So yeah, we're hoping-- we'll post some more of our educational screenings at some universities and colleges coming up this year. And then, also, again, hoping to get back home to the Muscogee Creek Nation and do some of those community screenings for free so that as many tribal citizens as possible can watch it. And yeah, we'll be waiting to hear if there's any other distribution ops in the meantime, but that's our plan for now.
So yeah, you can check out that bad-press-dot-film for a full schedule there for any other upcoming screening opportunities. So, we'd love for people to see it far and wide.
Matt Jordan: Well, Becca and Angel, we both agree here that it's worth seeing even if you're not a tribal because in terms of America as a tribe, as disjointed as it is, we have a lot to learn from the way that you all fought for keeping your community informed. So, we thank you for the film, and thanks so much for talking to us today.
Angel Ellis: [MUSCOGEE] Thank you so much for having us and being part of our journey.
Rebecca Landsberry-Baker: Can't really believe that people this far and wide are loving it, but I'm happy that it's meaning something to everyone.
Matt Jordan: That was a really interesting conversation, Leah. It left me thinking, as did the movie, a lot about the media in general, and the news in particular. So, what are things that percolate up for you?
Leah Dajches: Yeah, absolutely. I feel like we learned so much by talking with Angel and Becca. And I think for me, both in our conversation as well as through watching Bad Press, their documentary, I feel like I learned so much in general about tribal media and tribal news. And then, really, it has me thinking a lot about the role of free press within the broader United States, and how perhaps there's a need to fight for it more than what we're doing naturally.
Matt Jordan: I found myself thinking that we often hear people in the news who produce news talking so much about professional ethics, about how to cover a story. And it's inspiring to hear journalists whose commitment is to the people that are serving and how differently they think about it. For them, the trust of the people and being truthful matters more than whatever professional ethics they might that that forms the basis of their of their relationship to what they're doing.
Leah Dajches: That's it for this episode of News Over Noise. Our guests were journalist Rebecca Landsberry-Baker and Angel Ellis. Rebecca directed the documentary, Bad Press, which chronicled the tribe's fight for freedom of the press in the Muscogee Nation. Angel was one of the journalists featured in the film. To learn more, visit newsovernoise.org. I'm Leah Dajches.
Matt Jordan: And I'm Matt Jordan.
Leah Dajches: Until next time, stay well and well-informed.
Matt Jordan: News Over Noise is produced by the Penn State Donald P. Bellisario College of Communications and WPSU. This program has been funded by the Office of the Executive Vice President and Provost at Penn State and is part of the Penn State News Literacy initiative.
[END OF TRANSCRIPT]